Bhatt and Winfree: Two industry leaders and their shared optimism for the future.

FHWA Administrator Shailen Bhatt and TTI Agency Director Greg Winfree reflect upon a wide range of mobility challenges and opportunities, with references to Star Wars, Dick Tracy and hair styles.

Transcript

Bernie Fette: 0:14

Greetings, everyone. Welcome to Thinking Transportation -- conversations about how we get ourselves and the stuff we need from one place to another. I'm Bernie Fette with the Texas A&M Transportation Institute. We like to believe that every episode of this podcast is special in some way, and that is certainly true today in the sense that we have two very distinguished public servants as our guests on the show. Mr. Shailen Bhatt is the current administrator of the Federal Highway Administration. Mr. Greg Winfree is the current agency director of the Texas A&M Transportation Institute, and a former Assistant Secretary of Transportation. Our guests have leadership experience at both the state and federal levels, and each has worked in both the private and public sectors. I think we're especially fortunate to have them together on our podcast so that we can learn from their collective experience and their collective insights. Administrator Bhatt and Director Winfree, thank you so much for sharing your time with us.

Greg Winfree: 1:22

Well, Bernie, it's a great pleasure. I wanna reiterate the welcome and thanks that you've set forth Shailen. This is a tremendous honor for us to have you join us on our podcast. We've got the great distinction , uh, through the hard work of Bernie and other team members of this transportation podcast being the number one podcast in the transportation arena. So we've been very effective in our outreach and in helping folks understand the issues that impact and drive this dynamic industry. And it's just a thrill and an honor to cap it off with someone of your stature joining us.

Shailen Bhatt: 2:00

Well, one , Bernie , I appreciate the welcome and Greg, it's an honor to be anywhere with you, but particularly since we both have hairstyles that were meant for podcasts, <laugh>, I think , uh, you know, it's uh , it is a question as to who has the better hair, but I guess your mustache may win out here.

Greg Winfree: 2:18

Well, you got me with the eyebrows.

Shailen Bhatt: 2:20

<laugh> <crosstalk> . Luxurious.

Bernie Fette: 2:24

Well, I can't help but just offer for the benefit of our listeners that we experienced a first today as we were preparing. We had to wait just a few minutes for our guest , the administrator, to join us online because he was busy taking a call from the President and the Secretary of Transportation. That is a first for us.

Shailen Bhatt: 2:44

Yeah, well look, I think a lot of this is related to the bridge closures in Maryland and the tragedy with the Francis Scott Key Bridge. Yes . And this is a president who cares about infrastructure deeply a , a secretary who I was with there the very day that it happened. And so I think, and maybe we'll get into some of this a little bit later on, but I think infrastructure has been something that has traditionally united us as a nation, and we're gonna try and use this as a rallying point as well.

Bernie Fette: 3:18

Yes. I think we will get into that a little bit more in just a few minutes. I was hoping that we could start with a really broad stroke of the brush and I could invite you both to share your views on the general state of America's highway infrastructure. Shailen, can I ask you to begin?

Shailen Bhatt: 3:36

Yeah. So I would say a couple of things. I think number one, you know, I've been in transportation now for a few decades. In fact, Greg and I worked together during the Obama administration at USDOT. And since then I've run a couple of state DOTs and for the entirety of my career in transportation, it's always been sort of a time of, "if only," right? If, if only we had the funding to build this project, if only we had more resources, we could build this bridge or fix these roads. And I think it's important because, you know, if you go back in the 20th century and even the 19th century, there was a sense that if you went to America, the streets were paved with gold. And you know, when I got involved in transportation, a lot of the narrative was that the streets weren't even paved in America. That our roads and bridges were crumbling, that our airports were substandard. And so I'm a huge Star Wars fan. And so I think this is a time of "a new hope" and we are finally able to begin addressing this decades-long challenge with our infrastructure. And it's important in the 21st century that the narrative not be about America's crumbling roads and bridges, that it be about the 21st century infrastructure that we're building to compete with nations who are investing heavily in their infrastructure.

Bernie Fette: 5:12

Greg, your thoughts?

Greg Winfree: 5:14

Yeah, I certainly echo what Shailen has set forth, but interestingly, you know, he answers this question from the position of someone that has been an asset owner and manager, right? Even into his current role with the Federal Highway Administration. So I'll give some perspectives as a customer or a user of the infrastructure that's out there now, having been inculcated at DOT, I understand the difference between state responsibilities, the federal aid highway system, et cetera. But for a person who's out and about and traversing the roadways across the country, there is a fair measure of truth to those observations about crumbling roads and bridges. It makes for a catchy identifier. I would say it's probably more dramatic than accurate, but it's clear that our ability to take care of the infrastructure that we have has lagged. Right? So I'm from the New York City area, there's any number of tunnels or roadways where you can literally see the rebar corroding through the concrete, you know, and all of the various issues that challenging weather that you get in the colder parts of the country inflict upon flexible materials like asphalt pavements, et cetera . There's a lot that is kind of tied up in it. But I'd say from the layperson's perspective, being peppered with these kinds of observation slash criticisms up to and including the , uh, American Society of Civil Engineers report card every year there is a negative cast that I think we need to work diligently to put behind us. But if we're honest with ourselves, this is still a nation that is better connected than most other certainly developed countries. And certainly in the developing world, there is no competitive model that can duplicate what we have here in the U.S. So we have a lot to be proud of, but pride also means taking care of the heirloom that we have so we can pass it on to next generations.

Bernie Fette: 7:23

Right. Shailen, you mentioned just a few minutes ago the call that you took concerning the bridge collapse in Baltimore Harbor. Using that as an example, I wonder if you both could reflect on how that incident helps to remind us of how vitally important our transportation systems are to our economy and to our daily lives?

Shailen Bhatt: 7:45

Yeah, look, I think the first call I got on that was, you know , uh, in the middle of the night about 10 days ago. And it's always a shock. And whether it's the Francis Scott Key bridge or the I-95 Bridge in Philadelphia, that came down because of the tanker fire or any number, you know, going back to Minneapolis and 2007 with the I-35 W, I think for most Americans, they don't think about transportation the way that transportation people think about transportation, right? Like, right , you know, I can't pick my favorite road or bridge because you know, you , you love all your children or loved ones, right? <laugh> , but there's probably less passion amongst the traveling public and more sense that transportation is a utility, right? Just like we don't really think much of it. When we get up in the morning and turn on the lights and they just come on, we expect them to come on , the water is expected to come on. But if you go to turn your lights on or your water on and it doesn't come on, now you're really attuned to the importance. And I think that what incidents like these bridges coming down, or roads being closed, as it really drives home the criticality of the infrastructure. When we lost I-95, and I wanna credit PennDOT and the contractors who we worked with to get that open in 12 days with an emergency construction, you know, the palpable pain that was being felt, not just in Philadelphia, but along the East Coast, you could sense it, the businesses, the hours of delay that were being inflicted. And so, you know, again, there's a lot of things that divide Americans right now if you think about it. Our transportation network and our roads and our highways are one of the few things that still truly physically unite us as Americans. And hopefully as in the past, whenever something has happened, part of that network, this will be a rallying cry to again, bring Americans together and realize that there are a lot of things that do bind us together as Americans, right? We can hope.

Greg Winfree: 9:49

You know, in Shailen's reflections, remind me of a deputy secretary. We both worked under John Pari and he had a phrase he would say, there were no Republican or Democratic potholes, right? So he touched clearly on the issues that Shailen raised. These are the kitchen table issues that every American deals with , whether it's on their commute, whether it's on , uh, healthcare visits or grocery store runs. These are the kitchen table issues that are the first calls that legislators get, right? So there is that unifying factor. But one thing I would also say, it's , it's kind of from some , uh, corny stump speeches . I used to say when I was at DOT , transportation is the circulatory system of our nation. And much like if you have an occlusion or you have a infarction in your body, it's the exact same way with transportation. So if there is a fault somewhere, the entire system takes a hit. And we're seeing that, like Shailen said with the I-95, with the Francis Scott Key bridge collapse. So there's a lot of focus now from a system perspective because folks don't appreciate or understand how the modal capabilities stack atop each other. So a bridge going out means no deliveries, A bridge in the water means ships can't deliver cargo and on and on. So there's a lot that's packed into it. But from a Texas perspective, what we did at TTI with our ports and waterways group was do an analysis of bridges in ports here in Texas to kind of understand what are our potential vulnerabilities. We came to the conclusion that we're in pretty good shape. We don't have the kind of bridge that the Francis Scott Key bridge presented, but it causes states and other asset owners to re-look at what they have so that they're not finding themselves in similar situations. And one final point I'll make is as cargo ships get grander and grander, with the advent of Panamax and other multi-thousand deliverable freight vessels, doubling down on infrastructure resilience becomes job number one. So we're in lockstep with federal highways on that as well.

Bernie Fette: 12:14

Great thought, Greg. And one thing that occurs to me in listening to you talk about that is how this tragedy, this bridge tragedy that we were talking about is a bit of a contrast in one sense. Because if we base things only on how things look on the surface, these ships and our major bridges both appear to be quite robust and resilient, but they are also part of an overall system that at times can appear to be somewhat fragile. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , am I being fair there in terms of how we could look at things?

Greg Winfree: 12:50

Well, you know, I'd say there's a , again, a misperception as to how and what engineering does. Bridges are designed to operate under tension with competing and opposing forces. So even though it looks like a giant structural monolith, right ? It literally, it's like a rubber band. I mean, it's under tension and designed to operate in that fashion. And you know, like Jenga , the minute one piece is outta place, the whole assemblage can collapse as we saw. So, and I remember as a kid sitting on the George Washington Bridge going to visit my grandmother in New Jersey, when the bridge traffic was full and it was full of trucks and whatnot, you would feel the bridge swaying. Wow. It was intended to do that. It was still unnerving when you're in your family station wagon with mom and dad and the bridge is swaying. But that's what the engineering disciplines provide and that's how these structures are intended to operate. Same with skyscrapers. If you're at the top of a skyscraper, you could feel it swaying, particularly in New York City today with the 4.7 magnitude earthquake. I'm sure folks felt some swaying. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . But that's part of the design envelope. But it just takes one leg of the stool to be pulled out and that's what causes these significant issues.

Bernie Fette: 14:10

Right.

Shailen Bhatt: 14:11

And you know, just to add to that, I think the earthquake reminds people , I mean it's a , I think around a five , uh, 5.0 on the Richter scale, so enough to get people's attentions, but the buildings are going to sway, the bridges are going to sway, but they're designed within that tolerance. You saw a pretty significant earthquake in Taipei, much stronger. And you can see I think their tallest skyscraper there, they actually have this giant steel ball that works as a pendulum to absorb that force. And so, you know, this is one of the things that has kind of come up in the media coverage of this. Like should Americans be concerned about driving over bridges? And one of the things I wanna just reassure people with is every bridge in the country's -- i n our bridge inventory, they're inspected on a regular basis. If they're considered to be too old or there's something wrong with i t, they get inspected on a more regular basis. And so there's a set of occurrences here that led that ship to bring that bridge down and the NTSB will fully address that in their report. But you know, we just don't want people out there thinking, oh my goodness are all the bridges about to fall? They're not. But as Greg says, you know, they're designed for certain lateral loads and when something with the equivalent force of a rocket ship taking off collides, the bridge was designed and built in the 1970s when cargo ships were carrying 2,500 containers. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> today they're carrying 25,000 in plans to get bigger. And so we just need to have a conversation, and this is also part of engineering, is to make sure that as technology advances, we're not just building things better, but we're also looking backward to retrofit existing structures to make sure they're as resilient as possible. Mm-Hmm.

Bernie Fette: 16:05

<affirmative> . Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> , we hear and read a lot about the future of roadway travel, especially in terms of electrification and self-driving cars and trucks and Shailen a few minutes ago you mentioned 21st century infrastructure. Based on what you both know today and what you imagine for tomorrow, how would you paint a picture of that future? What would it look like?

Shailen Bhatt: 16:30

Well, I would say a couple of things. I think Greg and I have both been in the business of predicting the future for transportation for a long time. And what's great about it is very few people ever want to ever come back and say, oh, you were wrong. Right? So it's a good business to be out there predicting the future. And if I was better at it, I think I would make a lot more money and then, you know, it would be a totally different podcast that I'd be on. You know, I always think that we need to have humility when trying to predict the future because history shows us that we're really bad at it. Okay ? So in 2005, when I first got started in transportation in 2004, whatever it was, you know, the idea that in 20 years we would have personal devices that would be hailing vehicles so that a stranger would pull up and pick me up and drop me off somewhere that we would have all of this data coming off of vehicles. I mean, it would not have felt like that would be happening in the next 10 years. And so as I sit here now and I try to forecast 10, 15, 20 years in the future , if I'd gone on a trip with a loved one in 2005, we would've talked about having to book a hotel and rent a car. And you know, the other day when I was talking to my wife about a trip, she's like, let's just Airbnb and we can Uber in from the airport. Those are two verbs that were not nouns in 2005 or even 2009. That's when some of this, you know, Uber and Airbnb were getting started. And so what do I think about when I look out 10, 15, 20 years? I do think with persistent and courageous application of technology, we can get to zero deaths on American roadways. I think it's ridiculous that I can track a package that is coming from Amazon to within two or three stops of my house. And yet we still have vulnerable road users getting hit by vehicles because of distracted driving and other issues, right? I think we are operating our transportation systems with some exceptions in the very 1980s, 1990s and early two thousands manner, like the way technology has transformed the way we consume media, the way we shop, the way we experience life is going to happen to transportation. And so I think congestion and fully utilizing our systems so that we're actually even assigning trips at some point to maximize the throughput of an entire region's transportation system, I don't think is that far away. I think electrification is a buzzword in the politics of this ridiculous election year in which we find ourselves. And regardless of the outcome in November, the global trends towards electrifying fleets is going to continue. I think what President Biden has said is that he wants the American economy to benefit from this, right? Just again , the 20th century America was very successful because the global market bought American cars. He wants to buy electric vehicles here. And President Trump, when he was president, he was trying to get GM to buy the Lordstown plant to produce electric trucks . So my sense is, regardless of the political outcome of the election, you'll still see that trend towards a reduction in the carbon footprint of transportation. 'cause that's just a good thing. Greg, the crystal ball is yours.

Greg Winfree: 20:03

Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that. I guess the first thing I would say as a fellow Star Wars junkie, I'm ready for my land speeder <laugh>. Um, so vehicles that follow traditional pathways is set out by a roadway network will likely need to continue, but the vehicles that traverse them will change over time, starting with the electrification discussion that we're having now. But I would also add hydrogen and fuel cells. I think the future will be kind of a multifactorial future from a propulsion technology perspective. So we've relied upon dead dinosaurs for the past 100 years to move us from point A to point B, whether it's gasoline or diesel. Those products will still be in the mix and still in the market. But we'll start to see a shift toward a more balanced usage of differing technologies for differing and usages. So maybe in city transportation is electrified, maybe long distance trucking is hydrogen or or fuel cell, other technologies will come down the pike, battery technology will get better. So the future is bright from the devices that move us. Uh, from an infrastructure perspective, I think a lot of what we've learned and what we've utilized will need to continue to be refined. Vehicles are getting heavier. So, you know, with our roadside safety physical security team, we're very much interested in leaning in on testing of how electrified vehicles work with the roadside infrastructure, meaning guardrails, cable median barriers, breakaway poles, et cetera. What's that gonna look like when you've got heavier or lower center of gravity vehicles out on the roadways? So there's a lot that's wrapped up in it . I guess another finer futurist point I would point out or just reflect on, is it from the seventies? I fondly remember the Dick Tracy Sunday cartoon and Dick Tracy would talk into a watch, right? And at the time, that was the most incredible forward thinking sci-fi thing that was out there. But what are we doing now? We've got Google watches, Fitbits, we've got Apple iWatches and whatnot, and they're doing exactly that. You can take phone calls from your wrist, you can watch videos. So the province of Sci-Fi is to kind of unlock creative thinking for the developments of the future. And I think we'll start to see that on our roadways then . Like I said, I'll be happiest when I get my land speeder or flying motorcycle that also is in the Star Wars series <laugh>.

Shailen Bhatt: 22:48

Well, and just on that point, maybe make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs, right? That's right, that's right . <laugh> . I also think though that , you know , the flying motorcycle, I mean that's sort of the next frontier you're talking about on the roadways, right? But urban air mobility, yes. So I mean , my daughters are eight and 10 and I also, I'm a huge history buff. I think back if you were born in 1900, right when you were three, the Wright brothers first flew in Kitty Hawk and when you were 69 then Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. That's one lifetime, right? Right. And so things only move faster now. So as I'm sitting here talking to my daughters who were with me actually in Baltimore last week, talked about the best spring break ever . Dad, take us to DC and show us a bridge emergency. And just you be on calls all day, you know the future that they're going to have, right? Urban air mobility, flying cars, verti ports , that is stuff that is under development now and it's not Dick Tracy 50 years from now, that's like in the coming decade. Yeah . We're going to see that. And she almost get this three, I think of traffic management centers now, right ? Managing our roadways. But there's like a third dimension of traffic management that's coming, right? Where, you know, these urban air mobility corridors are going to be likely along these roadways. So a traffic management center is going to have to handle everything that's below 50 feet, that is outside of FAA . So it's uh , just a fantastic future. The one thing I think Greg and I would both have is probably a shared optimism that hopefully we're making things better and not making things worse when we do these things.

Greg Winfree: 24:25

It's funny, Shailen raised the transportation network company's Uber Lyft idea, and I have a very distinct memory of standing in front of the USDOT building, needing to get to a meeting. And in those days, 2010 to 2014, the street in front of the department, at every stoplight there was a small army of red DC taxis, right? And you just have one and you hop in a taxi. That was the way we got around town. Well, I was out front one day with a colleague and he said, yeah, I'm gonna call an Uber. And I said , well , well what is that? And he called the Uber, we rode together, and that was the first time I had ever ridden in an Uber. And he said , yeah, you need to download this app, right? So I did that, but I mean, that's 2012 and you look where we are now, 12 years later, decade plus later, and it's now ubiquitous to the point where it's a rarity now to see numbers of taxis along M Street or along New Jersey Avenue, right? So the model has completely shifted in that extraordinarily short timeframe as new conveniences and new thought processes about how to move from point A to point B take root . And then the other thing I would add is I remember in 2014 when Google came to town with their self-driving Prius, and we took a ride down I-395, and it was fascinating. And you saw it was first time experiencing lidar and seeing how light detection and ranging sees what's going on around it. So to go from those first effective but somewhat halting rides down an interstate now has led to, I just took a trip to Phoenix last week and rode in a self-driving Waymo from the airport to the hotel. Now I'd done it before at conferences, but never had done it in a revenue service capacity. And you know, it's here, the future is now.

Bernie Fette: 26:23

You mentioned optimism a couple of minutes ago, Shailen, which makes me want to ask you both, what is it that you feel most optimistic about right now? And two-sided question, what, if anything, keeps you up at night?

Shailen Bhatt: 26:37

So a couple things, right? I think, you know, when I was the president and CEO of ITS America, and Greg was involved with ITS America back in the day as well, you know, we , we talked about a future that was safer, greener, and smarter, right? And where my optimism lies is I truly believe that within my, my daughter's lifetime, they're going to talk to each other about "God! Ru and Dad used to go on about like, you know, be safe when crossing the roads and driving is this dangerous thing and 40,000 people are dying on American roadways," which is a shocking figure because I believe that, again, there's a lot of things that we need to do, but I just think that technology can help us get there. And you know, Greg was talking about the self-driving taxi. I remember when I was a Colorado DOT director, we did what I call is the world's first commercial autonomous freight delivery. Other people call it the beer run where the truck went, you know, a hundred miles on the interstate with 50,000 pounds of beer in the back. And today in Texas, they have companies like Waymo and Aurora and others are getting ready to do the freight service, right? So that was 2016 -- 8 years ago, and now you've got soon to be commercially viable services out there. So, and we did it for safety, right? Like when you look at the crash data, a lot of it related to human error and things that we know that from a behavioral standpoint, we want to be able to get out, there's stuff we need to do on the system side, but we've engineered a lot of safety in there. So my optimism comes from the fact that I think that because of advances in technology, we're gonna get to zero deaths on American roadways within a generation. I am a big believer that the 28 percent of GHG emissions that come from the transportation sector, we're gonna get that way down. Whether, you know , as Greg said , it's not just electrification. There are other alternative fuel modes, but even electrification, we're putting chargers out there now. There's inductive charging models that are out there, right? So that is the great thing about technology. It goes on and it'll be seamless and then smarter. I just think that so much of our transportation system can be operated so much more efficiently and effectively. And so that's what the optimism is. The downside and the thing that keeps me up at night is as these become systems of systems, the cybersecurity threat goes up. There's just many more vectors in. So, you know, we have to design these systems with cybersecurity at the forefront. And then there will always be the things that literally keep me up at night. Like, you know, major infrastructure disasters as happened last week in Baltimore. And, and you know, just my thought on that too is that while it is a mile long bridge that was taken down by a a hundred thousand ton carrier, there were six lives that were lost in that. And whether it's the six lives that are lost there, or the 42,000 that were lost last year on American roadways, that's the part, as the federal highway administrator that I feel ultimately responsible for. And that's what keeps me up. Every one of those individuals who don't have to die , uh, on a system that we own and operate.

Greg Winfree: 29:46

And Bernie, you know, I would say from an optimism perspective, I've got the extraordinary opportunity here at TTI, here at Texas A&M because I see upfront and close the next generation of talent that will be filling these roles behind us. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> , they're extraordinarily brilliant, gifted, motivated; they see the world differently than somebody who was raised, as I said, reading Dick Tracy , who's probably not even around anymore or certainly would not resonate with the students here on this campus or in any campus around the country. So I have great hope in the brilliance of those engineers, technicians, operators, data scientists, and yes lawyers that are coming up that will be filling these roles. And I get to see and interact with them on a almost a daily basis. So that gives me great hope. And I would also, of course, give a huge shout out to the Federal Highway Administration for the University Transportation Center program, where they've turned to us as university researchers to help round out the depth of talent resident with the tremendous civil servants that work in the federal government. But you can't cover all bases . And that's why you look toward universities to round out that bench , uh, of talent that's tackling these vexing issues going forward. And Federal Highways has been a huge supporter in that regard. So those things give me great optimism. The thing though that gives me pause, and I've said it in a number of scenarios, kind of gets back to issues that I became proficient at when I was at DOT . And that has to do with GPS. GPS is foundational for transportation. It's even reflected in the fact that the U. S. Department of Transportation shares federal government responsibility along with the Department of Defense for representing the civil and civilian interests that utilize that great technology. So not only does it tell you where you are, it's the when you are is the, the real issue that's been interwoven into our economy. And that's the timing signal that GPS provides. It's a silent utility, but it is a single point of failure. And the day, a week, a month without GPS would wreak havoc on how this nation operates. And unfortunately, the fortitude to invest in technologies to keep it world class , to keep it the gold standard, have lagged behind. There's no real federal leadership from an ownership perspective for that utility. So we are unfortunately , uh, at risk , certainly of bad actors, but even natural events, space weather and other things like that can cause issues with respect to receipt and transmission of the GPS signal. And that's certainly something that keeps me up. I got involved with those issues back in 2011. Not much has moved forward since then. And our competitor nations, I won't say them out loud, but there are competitor nations that seek to have dominance in this space and render our system, the global leader and the global originator of this technology, the second or third status position. And that's something we should not tolerate as a nation.

Bernie Fette: 33:10

The last couple of questions that I have for you both lean just a little more in a personal direction. There's a quote that's attributed to George H.W. Bush at the time when his graduate school of government was established at Texas A&M nearly 30 years ago. You could hear it in speeches at the time, you could see it printed on t-shirts that students were wearing around the campus. And the quote was simply "public service is a noble calling." Given how you've both spent your careers, I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that sentiment.

Shailen Bhatt: 33:44

I was just remembering when I went to, I think it was Texas A&M, because they had a , where I went to school, we had a pool there, they had the natatorium, and I was like , oh, you know, you're at a <laugh> , you know, you , you know, you're big time and when you gotta , I'll meet you at the natatorium. So I, I mean, nobody attributes this quote to me because I just, I'm not that notable, but I've always said that there's nobility in public service. And I say that because, you know, when I became a deputy executive director with the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet, I was like 30 years old. And I remember this guy coming to me saying, listen, you're young. You're full of vim and vigor. You got all these great ideas, but you need to remember that there are people working here who've been working here longer than you've been alive. And I still remember, and I still think about that and reflect on that, on somebody giving their entire career to something. I mean, I've done a lot of public service, but it's been in, you know, several different roles. And I just think that the level of care and investment that people have to devote their career to something like that is do-able. And then the other thing, I used to go around, and I always thought you had to earn the respect of people, right? So when there were snow and ice events in Kentucky or Delaware or Colorado, I always go out and ride around in the plows, or I would go out during hurricanes and I would be out there with our people. And you know, I'd hear from people say things like, oh, I, I want one of those nice cushy government jobs. How do I get one of those jobs? And what I would always say to people is that when someone is on the radio saying, don't go out, it's too dangerous. That's when the men and women of many of our DOTs, city, state, and even federal, are heading out so that people can be safe. And with the Francis Scott Key Bridge, whether it's the first responders who drove their cars out to block traffic when they got the first mayday call that absolutely saved lives. Whether it's the divers who are down in the water now working hand over hand in very dark murky waters to find the remains of the workers who lost their lives, to the engineers who are working around the clock to open the channel and, and rebuild that bridge. You know, I just think that there are huge swaths of the American population who have no idea of the sacrifice that the public sector puts in. And I only say that as somebody who's had the privilege to lead some of these organizations. I've worked in the private sector, and there's really great people out there who are absolutely mission-driven, but it's just a little bit different when the people you're going to serve are your own neighbors and fellow Americans.

Greg Winfree: 36:37

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and Bernie, I agree with that a thousand percent. My first exposure to public service was as a trial attorney at the Department of Justice when George Herbert Walker Bush was president, 41 mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . And that cemented the importance to me of not just giving back, but the value of bringing your talents, education and expertise to the betterment of your fellow American. That was tremendous to me. And then I became a corporate lawyer for 17 years, worked for three different Fortune 500 companies. And like Shailen said, they are mission oriented, but as rewarding as the mission is, when you roll up your sleeves and do the work, at the end of the day, corporations exist to create wealth for their shareholders and other stakeholders. So it's a narrower slice. It doesn't mean the work is any less important or any less engaging, but at the end of the day, you don't get that psychic income from knowing that you've done your level best to better your fellow Americans. So to have an opportunity to come to the department, starting as chief counsel , and ultimately as assistant secretary, again, just double down on what I learned as a trial attorney under Bush 41, and it carries forward into the role I have here in state government. You know, appended of course, and affiliated with a tier one research university, right ? Right . But it's again, a continuation of the psychic and psychological benefits that I get the endorphin rush you will, that I get from doing this work that benefits so many. And again, not to denigrate the existence and the contributions of corporations. But for me, the benefit of public service is recognizing and respecting that nobility and ensuring that I always communicate and have that resonate with folks I interact with so that they see the value of it through my efforts. It's an informal recruiting mechanism in a lot of respects, but when you wear these roles with pride, it reflects on folks and it matters

Bernie Fette: 38:53

Psychic income. I love that idea. Last question, what is it that motivates you to show up to work every day ?

Shailen Bhatt: 39:02

Look, I can't think of a better job that I've ever had than working in the leadership roles in transportation. And, you know, the ability to affect change, positive change, whether it's building a bridge like the Brent Spence Bridge in Kentucky that when I was in Kentucky was, you know, just a , a pipe dream that was ever going to get when replaced. And when we were Obama appointees, you know, it was Senator McConnell was there, Speaker Boehner from Ohio was there, we're like, we got all the ingredients, we'll get this fixed. We couldn't get it done. And it's getting done because of the bipartisan infrastructure law , that bridge carries 3 percent of the freight of the United States across it, right? And we're gonna get that built, you know, and across the nation, we're getting projects like that built, but you don't have to have a big title to be a leader, right? I've met and worked with many fantastic leaders who are project managers, or they're designing a roundabout in Delaware, and they're gonna get that built, and it's going to save lives because people there wanted a signal at the intersection, and the roundabout is much safer. And so I think the thing that gets me up every day is just the amazing people I've been able to work with. I've been really blessed to be part of great teams like Greg and I were on an amazing team under Secretary of La Hood when we were there. I've had great teams with Colorado and in Delaware. My team at Federal Highways is just amazing. And I have the benefit of having worked with them twice now. And so to me, it's the people that you get to work with. It's true. Whether it's the private sector or the public sector, the team that you work with can really dictate a lot of whether you're happy or not at work, and then the impact that you could have. And I've had the pleasure of running a small MPO running a couple of, now I get to be the Federal Highway administrator. I mean, what more could you want in life? Right?

Greg Winfree: 41:01

And Bernie, for me, the thing that gets me up every morning, you know, I alluded to it a bit earlier, my career discipline, at least from an education perspective and experience was as a trial attorney slash litigation counsel . And in those roles, you become the expert of the matter that's in front of you. So in a lot of respects, my brain works as a data and information sponge. I'm a huge technology junkie, although my performance on our Microsoft teams would belie that <laugh> . Um , but I've always been fascinated by technology. I remember as a kid, I was, my mother used to say I was a strange kid. I had a popular science subscription at eight that I would read cover to cover and maintain that pace for years. So I've always been drawn to engineering and science and technology. So to be in this space now or in these spaces, looking back at my time at DOT , uh, surrounded by world renowned experts in the areas in which they were practicing, was just a complete data dump. And no two days were the same. I didn't know where I would have to take a deep dive into an area for which I'd never even had been experienced before in order to relay the importance of such, either the legislators or to , uh, university administrative personnel or, or out on the soapbox making speeches and other engagements on behalf of the Institute. So that, for me is a huge motivator. Not knowing what's going to be in front of me for the day, not knowing which area of expertise I'll have to tap into, to bone up and be, you know, an armchair expert in order to represent the Institute and the University appropriately. So that's still thrilling for me whenever the alarm goes off.

Shailen Bhatt: 43:00

Well, and I would be remiss if I did not also mention that part of what gets me up in the morning is being able to further my pursuit of being just like Greg Winfree. I mean, I'm working on the hair. We both share a love of technology. He drives a motorcycle. I drive a minivan. I'm a noted karaoke star, and he's like an operatic singer. So I mean, I, I got a long way to go, but that's another thing that motivates me. When my feet hit the floor in the morning, I was like, how can I be more like G.W.?

Greg Winfree: 43:31

Well, and

Bernie Fette: 43:32

For , for those of you who can't see, like I can see, I can attest to the fact that there's a very big smile on Greg's face right now, <laugh> ,

Greg Winfree: 43:39

And I would say back at you Shailen, because the humility with which you carry yourself in these lofty roles, it is just role model behaviors that I've always admired. So I'm proud to have stood by all these years, and I'm still a huge supporter.

Bernie Fette: 43:56

You both share some inspiring reasons for showing up every day, and your reasons remind us of why we're lucky to have you both working where you're working. Shailen Bhatt, FHWA, administrator and Greg Winfree, TTI Agency Director, Greg and Sheilen, thank you both so much for your time. Thank you for your service. We are abundantly grateful for both.

Greg Winfree: 44:20

Well, thank you, Bernie, for navigating this for us and making it more than just pleasant. It's just a honor to be here with you both, for sure.

Shailen Bhatt: 44:28

Yeah, I would just say that, you know, it is just been an absolute pleasure and look forward to many more conversations in the future.

Bernie Fette: 44:37

America's surface transportation system is a product of innovation, ambition, and investment. It fuels our economy, enables our daily lives, and gives us promise for a bright future. It does all those things because of the tireless work of dedicated career public servants who guide agencies and provide leadership and serve as examples to the next generation of professionals who choose public service as a noble calling, just as Shailen Bhatt and Greg Winfree have done. Thanks for listening. Please take just a minute to give us a review, subscribe and share this episode, and please join us next time for another conversation about getting ourselves and the stuff we need from point A to point B. Thinking Transportation is a production of the Texas A&M Transportation Institute, a member of the Texas A&M University System. The show is edited and produced by Chris Pourteau. I'm your writer and host, Bernie Fette. Thanks again for joining us. I'll see you next time.